What Cruelty In Ourselves, Mr. President?

Nice

Hey, Gessy, what is it you see as nice in this article?  Just curious.

i read the article and the comments........ the more i know of this man BO the more fearful for my country i become.....

I'm with you, there, Solskin.  Except I have been listening and watching him and have been repulsed by him from the beginning.  :(

I need to keep this article in perspective.  Admittedly, this gentleman's views slant heavily to the right, as do the comments, but I think he makes some very inconvenient points here.  His comment here, The truth, objective reality if you will, is something to be determined, not endlessly debated by those whose level of tolerance for “competing beliefs” borders on the suicidal, is one to consider.

However, if we are going to talk about the "cruelty in ourselves" by comparing waterboarding to what one of the comments list:

Hooding, waterboarding, phobias, conducted under full medical supervisions and stopped as soon as any physiological stress is measured.

That is exactly like what the Nazi's did to God's Chosen:
- seized all property and possessions
- herded jews (and Catholics) into ghettos
- herded into prison concentration camps
- forcibly tatooed with a number
- forcibly extracted teeth with fillings
- stole all jewelery
- forcible removal of hair
- worked to death
- starved to death
- beaten to death
- mass executions by nerve gas
- prisoners forced to remove and burn the dead from execution chambers
- forced participation in medically mutilating experiments

It's a tad disproportionate.

That was an awesome read.  Thanks for sharing it.  I might have to use the title Apologist-in-Chief myself.  :)  And I totally agree with these words:

No one's ever accused me of Pollyannaism but if I had to choose between the world views espoused by our posturing President or those of the Dutch girl who died of typhus at 15 in the hell of a Nazi concentration camp, I would choose Anne Frank's.

"I saw GIs toss extra C-rations to the Vietnamese who lined the roads during our mounted convoys; spare change given to the children of our hooch maids; random acts of simple kindness every day."

Joseph A. Rehyansky

you may have missed the sad truth. It is hardly charity to feed your own children.

And, like this writer, while I do not like torture, I understand why we did what we did. 

As he said...

His obvious reference was to our country's use of waterboarding and other interrogation techniques, which he courageously disavowed yet again for the umptyninth time in Cairo. Never mind that the Brooklyn Bridge is probably still standing and 10,000 rush-hour commuters are still alive because we waterboarded the right guy.

And...how in the world could Obama stand there and not be proud.  Amazing.

your blinded by your own hand M. he is more than proud, but it is not false pride. his pride is tempered with humility a quality we seem to have misplaced.

a noble soul takes credit for their mistakes not for what they did right.. because what you do that was right is the very thing you are supposed to do. and taking credit for your rightness is vanity and vainglorious. such vainglory is perceived by others as arrogance. now it is human nature to disregard such a person as not being authentic. and the  claim of authority, becomes a privet joke.

we have had a long free ride on the good works of a great generation and now we have become a dishonor.

You are the one who is blinded, Darren.  I find that rather sad.

Have we though?  Have we truly become a dishonor?

True pride and true humility are equal.  But when you are representing a nation, how do you balance true pride and true humility with honoring those for whom you speak?

Is it fair to say we are not a Christian nation, and then turn around to say we are a Muslim nation?  Is it fair to equate the cruelty shown in the Holocaust to that of waterboarding under medical supervision?

We still have Americans who lived through WWII and remember vividly those experiences.  Are we to tell them that we are no better than that of the Nazi's?

Where's the middle ground here? We are bound by international humanitarian law and we should never let what happened during WWII happen again.  But how far is too far when identifying what type of nation we are?  And how far is too far when apologizing for our country for the acts of a few?

And it's not only the acts of a few, but to a few.  What lamestream media has never shared was that only 3 were waterboarded.  Not every prisoner.  And those 3 were the masterminds and according to the previous administration, it saved us from having another attack.  One has to wonder what they would have said if the attack happened and it could have been stopped had we gotten information from these men.

And so Obama is comparing what was done by a few to a few to what happened under Hitler?  It's insane.

"And so Obama is comparing what was done by a few to a few to what happened under Hitler?  It's insane."

Where exactly in the D-Day speech did Obama compare the use of torture by the U.S. government to "what happened under Hitler"? I've read the whole thing several times and I can't seem to find it.

Hey Wil, he didn't say it in his D-day speech.  It's a conclusion drawn by the author of the article as follows:

Neither did our President cover himself with glory the day before, when he visited Buchenwald and said that it made him think of the “cruelty in ourselves.”

His obvious reference was to our country’s use of waterboarding and other interrogation techniques, which he courageously disavowed yet again for the umptyninth time in Cairo.

No. That's what the sunset-watchers and the stamp-burners want to convince us of, though. They, and those who lean toward their beliefs think that way and they want us to think that way too. The enemy within, defeat us with our own penchant or weakness for belly button watching and self-guilt. :)

Cathi L. Jun 10, 2009, 7:41pm EDT
Have we though? Have we truly become a dishonor

"Hey Wil, he didn't say it in his D-day speech.  It's a conclusion drawn by the author of the article as follows"

Yeah, I've read that speech, too. And while I read Pres. Obama's comment about the importance of "guarding against cruelty in ourselves", I can't imagine how Marilyn has managed to interpret those words as a comparison between the use of torture by the U.S. government and "what happened under Hitler."

I don't think that anybody wants to repeat the period of history that was Nazi Germany. I don't agree with Obama on a lot of things but willingly wanting to go through the horror that occurred during that time can't possibly be on his agenda.  That being said, we need to find a way to achieve balance in our government, something that is missing right now.

Half of the country is not being represented, conservatives have no voice.  I believe even many democrats see that as not good for our country.  There is too much power being placed in the hands of the presidency, and too many blindly following his lead, instead of using their voices for the people they are supposed to represent.

Where are our conservatives?  In the current position, they should be working to find middle ground.  I don't see that they are doing that.  Does anybody have an opinion on this?  I'd really be interested in knowing.

Where are our conservatives? In the current position, they should be working to find middle ground. I don't see that they are doing that. Does anybody have an opinion on this? I'd really be interested in knowing.

mmm.. I don't know if this is what you are looking for, but it's what went through my mind when I read your comment above.

"they should be working to find middle ground" ... ? This is the problem (as I see it). They /we are already fiscally, ideologically, mentally, politically etc quite a long ways past the "middle ground" and in order to actually find some of that, they ... we? ... need to quit looking for it toward the left. We need to pull back toward the right if we want to find the middle.

The Dems are where they are. They see what they want and see how to get it. It's natural for them to try to convince us that what we want is also in the direction of what they want. 'Cause the more people they can deceive (albeit sometimes not on purpose, but it's still deceipt of a kind) .. the more people thay can convince to come to the middle ... when the middle is now so far to the left ... the better it is for them. +shrug+

It's like me saying I want to watch a sunrise, but I am already out of position for seeing it. In fact, over the course of the day before I've incrementally been turned increasingly South. I ask for advice, or it is given unasked for .. from people who want to watch a sunset.

They say, "You are too far South, come around a little more to the West. You have to at least come to the middle ground between where you are and where we are." Which is, of course, a mistake. I should instead be asking for advice, and taking it, from those who want what I want ... from those who are already placed correctly to see the sunrise.

I think that's one of the things the TEA parties and the 9-12 project etc are going to do - pull or guide or point people back to where we can find and maybe agree about a middle ground (in time I hope), God willing.  I don't think anyone thinks we will ever actually have a government or country that is completely true republic or truly conservative ever again. And I doubt most of us would actually want a country that one-sided (we have that now and it's a mess).

We were meant to have and our country grew strong and remained strong under a system of checks and balances - and without the back and forth of a true middle ground, of at least two willing and actually different points of view being fully represented, we will be (are?) virtually done for.

Cathi L. Jun 10, 2009, 5:16pm EDT

I don't think that anybody wants to repeat the period of history that was Nazi Germany. I don't agree with Obama on a lot of things but willingly wanting to go through the horror that occurred during that time can't possibly be on his agenda. That being said, we need to find a way to achieve balance in our government, something that is missing right now.

Half of the country is not being represented, conservatives have no voice. I believe even many democrats see that as not good for our country. There is too much power being placed in the hands of the presidency, and too many blindly following his lead, instead of using their voices for the people they are supposed to represent.

Where are our conservatives? In the current position, they should be working to find middle ground. I don't see that they are doing that. Does anybody have an opinion on this? I'd really be interested in knowing.

But it seems they have us at a disadvantage right now.  Until conservatives gain more seats in Congress, it is the liberals' game.  No matter where middle ground winds up, wouldn't it be worthwhile, until things improve, to find it?  Otherwise, not only are conservatives faced with no voice, but the divide continues to grow.

Cathi, so many with whom I've corresponded have said that they stopped thinking that one voice could do anything or make a difference.  They were duped that way.  The Tea Party rallies are reminding us that if we begin making changes in our own backyard, those changes will grow and swell and multiply.  I love that so many of our state governors are Republicans and conservative.  We need to keep encouraging them to stand up for our states rights.

I wish I had an old saying I could roll off the top of my head to explain. Although .... I'm pretty sure you don't really need the explanation ;).

But it seems they have us at a disadvantage right now.

Yes, seems like they do.

Until conservatives gain more seats in Congress, it is the liberals' game.

Mmm.. as long as weak sister Repubs continue to be the weak link in the conservative chain ... yes, it is the liberal's game. And more's the pity. But if they could be reigned in somehow ... it would not be the liberal's game any longer.

No matter where middle ground winds up, wouldn't it be worthwhile, until things improve, to find it?

Mmm... no. Well, um ... depends on where ya want to end up. If you don't mind ending up watching sunsets when what you really want to do is to be watching the sunrise; the middle ground might be okay.

But if you want to eventually be able to watch at least a few sunrises you might want to try to shout out your own belief in sunrise-watching in order to get the attention and possibly the trust of other people who may also be wondering how and where to watch a sunrise; people who may not even know or be aware that there are actually people who are still willing to express and stand up for sunrise-watching.

You could also think of it this way - if you like collecting stamps, what's the benefit to your stamp collector's club of inviting, or trying to lure people who believe stamps should be burned any time they find them?

You might want to talk to them, try to educate them on the merits of not burning stamps ... but ya don't invite them into the club where they might be elected to treasurer or to president and be able to undermine your stamp-collecting principles from the inside.

And ya don't moderate your stance on not burning stamps just to attract more stamp-burners to your club. Better to have a smaller membership all of like mind irt your club's stance on stamp-burning; in that way you are then more likely to begin to attract (by default and by way of example and policy) more and more people of the mindset and belief that stamps shouldn't be burned. +shrug+

But if you, as a non stamp-burner, continue to try to find the middle ground with stamp-burners by going further and further toward compromising on stamp-burning - by redefining and restating or even weakening your own stance on stamp-burning in order to make your view more palatable to them ... eventually you'll be a member or president of a stamp-burners club, or at the very least a member of a club in which most members lean toward being tolerant of and belief in stamp-burning.

Anyway, that's the way I see it.

Cathi L. Jun 11, 2009, 1:17am EDT
But it seems they have us at a disadvantage right now. Until conservatives gain more seats in Congress, it is the liberals' game. No matter where middle ground winds up, wouldn't it be worthwhile, until things improve, to find it? Otherwise, not only are conservatives faced with no voice, but the divide continues to grow.

Otherwise, not only are conservatives faced with no voice, but the divide continues to grow.

I don't think we have no voice. We have little voice. But if that voice was to be raised about 10 decibels ... we might be able to get the attention of people who are like minded irt basic principles of non stamp-burning, but who must be convinced we can be trusted to hold to our principles this time - rather than bringing in or compromising too much with the stamp-burning camp.

The divide? It should grow. Otherwise why not just call ourselves stamp-burners and be done with it? If the majority wants what the stamp-burners want ... well they may just get it whether we compromise on our principles or not. In that case there actually is an old saying that applies to them. "Be careful what you ask for, you just might get it." We all suffer in that case but I'd rather suffer knowing I didn't contribute to the overwhelming growth of stamp-burners and stamp-burning than suffer knowing I contributed to my own suffering as well as to a spate of wide-spread stamp-burnings.

Cathi L. Jun 11, 2009, 1:17am EDT
But it seems they have us at a disadvantage right now. Until conservatives gain more seats in Congress, it is the liberals' game. No matter where middle ground winds up, wouldn't it be worthwhile, until things improve, to find it? Otherwise, not only are conservatives faced with no voice, but the divide continues to grow.

Absolutely Marilyn. In my community we have events planned for Flag day ... a march on Washington in about 3 onths ... Fourth of July. The tide is coming in, not goint out. Support State's rights.

Marilyn M. Jun 11, 2009, 10:38am EDT
Cathi, so many with whom I've corresponded have said that they stopped thinking that one voice could do anything or make a difference. They were duped that way. The Tea Party rallies are reminding us that if we begin making changes in our own backyard, those changes will grow and swell and multiply. I love that so many of our state governors are Republicans and conservative. We need to keep encouraging them to stand up for our states rights.

"Never mind that the Brooklyn Bridge is probably still standing and 10,000 rush-hour commuters are still alive because we waterboarded the right guy."

So the ends (even if they're only hypothetical) justify the means, Marilyn? If it's OK to torture people to possibly save 10,000 lives, what about if it just saves 1? I wonder if you'd feel differently if you or your husband or your step-son was the one being tortured.

Why would Uncle Sam want to "torture" (as you say) Marilyn, her husband, or her stepson, Wil??

As far as I know, neither of them are plotting to blow up any buildings or crash any airplanes into any skyscrapers.

And just think we got ALL the information we needed by offering a sugar free cookie to someone, THEN waterboarded him in an attempt to get him to say things that were NOT true.  Some people should have to wear a sign saying, "I'm Stupid".

"As far as I know, neither of them are plotting to blow up any buildings or crash any airplanes into any skyscrapers."

And as far as you know, every person tortured by the U.S. government (or by somebody else for the U.S. government) is plotting to blow up buildings or crash airplanes into skyscrapers?

Along with a lot of other things, we also tossed out the presumption of innocence, BERF.

Yes, Wil, the three who were tortured were involved in 9/11 and were still plotting to do us more harm. 

There have been more than three people tortured by the U.S. government, Marilyn. If you're referring to the three men mentioned by former CIA director Michael Hayden (Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, Abu Zubayda, and Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri), then either you're (once again) deliberately lying or you (once again) have no idea what you're talking about.

But if it's OK to torture those guys, it would also be ok to torture you, your husband, or your step-son, wouldn't it? Who knows what you might confess to after you'd been tortured repeatedly, and waterboarded 183 times. Who knows what any of us might confess to if we subjected to that sort of treatment. John McCain confessed to being a war criminal after he was tortured, so the abuse he suffered at the hands of his captors was entirely justified, right?

Thanks for sharing your post on Helping out One Another

I went through worse pledging my fraternity than any of these terrorists ever experienced.

I never pledged to a frat or a sorority but I have heard what goes on sometimes. I think Catharpin has a valid point. Not only about the physical and/or mental demands but about the somewhat involuntary nature of the things he had to do or was made to do.

Matt in Mecca:
You truly are a fool. Comparing hoods and uncomfortable positions to decapitation is really studpidily and extreme liberalism in its truest form. I went through worse pledging my fraternity than any of these terrorists ever experienced. So get real and wake up or one day, if this moron continues to be our president, you may face a frighening situation.

Jun 08, 2009 @ 07:55 AMRon, Catharpin

Torture is wrong......PERIOD. For the life of me, I can't believe that we still have U.S. Citizens trying to defend this crap.

There is hope for you yet, my good friend!

Torture is wrong.  We need to honor our parents and grandparents by honoring our agreement to keep the Geneva Conventions.

That being said, since the article is not about torture, but about how the author views Obama's speech and gestures regarding the sacrifices of D-Day, would you Timothy or you Spartan, honestly tell me your view on the amount of power held in this president's hands, which is equal to the same amount of power the previous president held?

It seems to me the checks and balances built into our government have been removed and, depending on who holds the position, this could spell real trouble for our country in the future, worse than we've ever seen.  Thoughts?

They have already made their position quite clear, Cathi.....

We must love everyone, no matter how many innocent people they kill....

We must be gentle and kind to them, and never cause them any pain or discomfort.....

We must always show leiniency and give them the benefit of the doubt, even when we actually catch them redhanded with their hands around someone else's throat.....

We must treat all men as our beloved brothers, even when they exist solely to destroy us....

And we must never get any of them wet............

Or feed them after midnight?  Wait, are we talking about Mogwais or Gremlins?  I thought that was fiction?  lol

"We must always show leiniency and give them the benefit of the doubt, even when we actually catch them redhanded with their hands around somebody else's throat....."

If that were the case, I would think it wouldn't be too hard to prove them to be guilty. In court. But then, torturing convicted criminals is illegal too, isn't it? Would you prefer that were not the case, BERF?

I would "prefer" it if Americans would care more about their own country than they do about a bunch of U.S.-hating terrorists getting a little wet down at Gitmo.....

In fact, I sometimes wonder who actually hates America more......

Do you really wonder that, BERF?

Do you really believe that Americans who find it unacceptable for our government to torture people hate America?

When Manadel al-Jamadi was tortured and beaten until he died, do you think the men who killed him did it because they love America?

When Charles Graner and Lynndie England were physically, psychologically, and sexually abusing prisoners in Abu Ghraib, do you think they were doing it because they love America?

Do you really believe that people can show how much they care about their own country by approving of these sorts of behaviors?

"Do you really wonder that, BERF?"

No, Wil, what I "really wonder" is what cretins like that are still doing living here, enjoying all the freedoms and benefits the United States has to offer them, instead of moving their sorry asses where their anti-American rhetoric would be more appreciated......like Iran or Afghanistan, for example.

I also wonder what your current objective is in asking all these accusitory questions.

To make me feel ashamed??

Because you have about as much chance in accomplishing that as you do getting me to feel the same way about this as you do.

"No, Wil, what I "really wonder" is what cretins like that are still doing living here, enjoying all the freedoms and benefits the United States has to offer them, instead of moving their sorry asses where their anti-American rhetoric would be more appreciated......like Iran or Afghanistan, for example."

Right, BERF. Not agreeing with you is clearly so anti-American that everybody who doesn't see things your way should pack up and get out.

"I also wonder what your current objective is in asking all these accusitory questions.

To make me feel ashamed?"

And I wonder what your current objective is in calling people names and insinuating that they must hate America even more than "the terrorists" do because they don't agree with you. I wonder if you don't wish you could show everybody how much you love America by torturing all the America-hating people who don't see things your way. And then of course blowing their brains out while dancing a merry jig. That'd show all them America-hatin' Americans, wouldn't it?

Just curious, Wil.  I've been reading your comments passed back and forth between you and Berf.  Despite the fact that this article isn't meant to be strictly on torture or waterboarding, you've really gone overboard in your comments regarding torture and waterboarding, especially to Berf.  I've usually seen you with rational comments, but here, I'm surprised at your reaction.  You and Berf have some sort of love-hate thing going on?  I honestly don't see Berf making the statements you feel are being said.

Berf: 

I would "prefer" it if Americans would care more about their own country than they do about a bunch of U.S.-hating terrorists getting a little wet down at Gitmo.....

Berf, as an ex-WSI, I would absolutely, positively LOVE to introduce you (or any other TRUE AMERICAN" to the thrills and joys of "a little wet down" as you so sneeringly call it.  "A little wet down?  You ARE kidding, right? 

You'd be wetting your own pants, and crying for the Antichrist in 10 minutes or less.  Promise. 

Cathi and Berf--you are so filled with the American Delusion, that you attribute sin and savior without ever having experienced 1/10th of what can go on in the military--when there are "no rules."  It is NOT the Outback Steakhouse, gals.  No Rules is totally unacceptable.

Ever.  Honor, real honor; and patriotism is not built on "breaking the rules, but in abiding by them, even when it is not to our "fastest" advantage." 

Shame on you both. 

Wilka

Wow Wilka.  Characteristically assuming again.  Shame on you.  Did you read anything here other than what you were looking for?  That's pitiful because your little rant on "real honor" just slid by the wayside.  Yeah, tell me about the American Delusion and what I attribute to sin and savior.  And tell me about what I know and don't know about the military.  I see it's not even worth the effort to try to reach out to people like you because you sit hiding away in your little mind, wearing your little blinders, and tossing out judgments like nobody's business.

No Kathy

Shame on YOU!

Cat

" honestly tell me your view on the amount of power held in this president's hands, which is equal to the same amount of power the previous president held? "

I'm a Republican and I believe that Spartan is a Democrat, so I'm pretty sure that we will both approach this from different angles. However I'll provide my take on this.

Bush took advantage of an unfortunate situation, which very well may have been an inside job, in order to take away certain Constitutional rights.....and unfortunately it was politically correct at the time, so most folks just sang along and let it happen.

Obama is in the same situation thanks to the mess created by Bush, Cheney, Rove and Company.... so most folks are just singing along as Socialism is slowly ushered in.

However both very well could be puppets of a much larger and more powerful puppeteer. A Google search on ' Skull & Bones ' leaves one with tons of material to read concerning this issue.

Before I even read your comment, I'm aware that you're a Republican and Spartan is a Democrat.  What better way than to have both sides look at this argument?

So you agree that they both have an incredible amount of power in their hands and it shouldn't be this way.  Was it truly Bush, etc., who created this?  I thought there were checks and balances.  Where have we failed? Whether it not it is part of a larger picture, there has to be a failure of the system to allow this to happen.  Bush had it, now Obama has it, what needs to be done?  This is a dangerous situation.

"We must be gentle and kind to them, and never cause them any pain or discomfort....."

Wouldn't American soldiers captured by the enemy expect the same?

Yes, I am sure Staff Sergeant Keith Maupin was probably expecting something like that......

....along with Nick Berg and a few significant others.

We should never forget those names.  Ever.

Cathi.....I refuse to participate any further in this conversation because it's obvious that you as well as Berf are convinced that it's OK for the U.S. Government to torture captives and then whine and moan when our own Soldiers are tortured.

One must consider that John McCain, whom Berf favored as a Presidential candidate, condemned water boarding because he had experienced torture himself.

It is fact that most Government that practice torture on enemy combatants also torture their own citizens, so I had better not hear even a groan from either of you while an NSA operative is pulling your toenails out with a pair of pliers.

I didn't really favor John McCain so much as seeing him as the only snowball's chance in hell of keeping B.O. out of the White House......

Unfortunately, that snowball hit hades with a half-a-second sizzle and from that moment on McCain became just another politician......

".....that you as well as Berf are convinced that it's OK for the U.S. Government to torture captives and then whine and moan when our own Soldiers are tortured."

That's because I don't give a rat's hindquarters about the jihad-loving vermin at Gitmo, but I do care a great deal about American men and women......

"That's because I don't give a rat's hindquarters about the jihad-loving vermin at Gitmo..."

What about people who were at Gitmo, but have since been released? Are you in favor of them being tortured by anyone who'd care to, or is that a priviledge that you think should belong exclusively to the U.S. government, aka "Uncle Sam"?

Like, David Hicks was held in Gitmo for over 5 years, plead guilty to"providing material support for terrorism", spent another 7 months in an Australian prison, then another year living under a "control order", and now lives in Sydney. Is he still a suitable target for torture, or is he a human again, rather than a vermin, now that he's not being held in Gitmo any more?

If he is an enemy of "Uncle Sam," then he's an enemy of me.......

If "Uncle sam" is no longer interested in him, then neither am I.

Right. So you don't personally want to torture the guy, but do you have any problems with anybody else doing so?

If this guy whom I never even heard of before you brought his name up has designs on crashing an airplane into a skyscraper and killing a couple thousand innocent American citizens, then not only will I be happy to "torture" him, as you say, but I will joyfully blow his friggin' brains out while dancing a merry jig.....

What in the world makes you think David Hicks has "designs on crashing an airplane into a skyscraper and killing a couple thousand innocent American citizens", BERF? Surely you don't seriously believe that every person held at Gitmo was involved in or planning such attacks, do you?

Your plan to torture and kill people based on what you think their designs are doesn't make much sense, BERF.

Wil B.  Love you man.  But, you're screaming up a dead tree here, dude.

You're talking to Sincere-Fanatic, Zealot X-tians here.  They believe in War, killing OTHER people, bombing OTHER nations, torturing OTHER citizens, depriving OTHERS of food, jobs, minimum wage, denying OTHER homo sapien American citizens civil liberties... and enjoy, and would like to perpetuate International (read Global) Christian Rule. 

Unless, of course, you're "en-womb-O."  Then you're safe from everything.   (Probably because you can't talk back en utero.)

As an unplanned newBORN / infant/child/teen/youth/adult:  They'll screw you 10 ways from Sunday once you're born into this world, but until the moment you start screaming, they gotcha back.

And, (sorry?) you're looking for Logic?  Among this group?

No, really?  Well, hope springs eternal.

Wilka

Wil, Don't you know that the Geneva Convention only applies to OUR soldiers?  Not to THEM!  Not to the Citizens of Other Countries....

'Nuff said.  Blessed be, Wil.

Wilka

Your really a sad one, Kathy.  Nothing like the Assumption Express rumbling through, huh?  Why don't you get you a ticket and take a ride?  Head on down to the dark side.  Find where you can hang your prejudices and your misconstrued thoughts on the bones of others you've put on trial, condemned and executed.  I finally found ground zero for hate.  Congratulations.  Wear your badge with pride.

Cat

I know that this is off topic, Cathi, but you asked the question up there somewhere. I think that we are so afraid to compromise because we don't want to subscribe to the other side's ideals. We don't want to give the other side an ounce of credit for fear of  discrediting our side. We don't think of something as a good or bad idea we first think of it as a conservative or liberal idea (politically speaking, of course). I think that those in the forefront of each party fans these flames because it serves them well. They sell more books, get more interviews, get more votes. I wish I had a solution, or even an idea, but I don't. It seems hopeless. I often feel that the divide is so deep and wide that there is no bridging it. I don't even think anyone really wants to try because it would be giving 'them' what they want.

*In this comment, the words 'us' 'them' 'our side' 'their side' or any combination thereof do not represent my political leanings, they are generalizations.

No, Shannon, it is exactly on topic.  This was the direction I was trying to go before everything centered on a small proportion of Rehyansky's article, and Timothy started assuming my view on torture, despite anything I have said further up the thread.

But as you can see from the comments here, the divide is deep.  No one was interested in understand why we can't find middle ground, nor how it came about that the president has been given more power than our system of government allows.

I think your comment here is very intuitive.  I wish more would think along these lines.  Thank you.

Cathi, Bush tried the Middle ground, and look where it got us. THe fact is not that the Conservatives need to find a middle ground, but that the left are willing to work with others, in which they are not.

No I do not believe Obama knows much or even cares about the History of this COuntry, no more than he does the COnstitution, but that is what so many wanted in Office, and got. Now we all will have to pay the price of it. What we needed, was someone from outside the big two parties that had a much more clear vision of what this country needed. Instead we got a puppet.

Middle ground will have to be found from both sides, not just one like we had with Bush.

even the hint of comparing this country to nazi german is repulsive.....i cannot help but wonder what those who stormed that beach would think about that....somehow, someway the silent americans need to find a voice.....the same kind of pride that caused all the flags to be flown after 911 should be brought back.......i find all of the things this new president has done a slap in the face to all who died fighting for our freedom....

This one made me cry.  I've got to stop reading these.  They tear at my heart strings.  I love our United States of America.  God bless America and God bless all who have fought for her survival and her people.  God bless all our troops.  God bless America despite ourselves.

Cathi,

I don't know what the answers are, though I do think there is an awful lot that we may well never know about. The bridge between the two partys is huge and unless there's a way of it maybe coming full circle, which at this point, seems unlikely, as the two are just so far apart and have been for quite some time.

It's not about really, liberals and conservatives, there are many in-betweens, perhaps the majority of us even, though there's no way of actually knowing this as we just don't have a viable third party. Maybe someday...

Just here, there are many differing views and they differ greatly, from one end of the spectrum to the other and there ought to be a middle ground, we NEED there to be, for any significant change to be brought around - where is it? I just don't have answers.

Marilyn

I just can't buy that we are so very far apart that we'll never find something that can't be worked on together.  We have too many commonalities.  I understand that it is a mindset on both sides.  What conservatives view as right, liberals can't understand and visa versa.  I've seen it very clearly.  I've got one foot on the right and I'm dipping my toes in the left!  lol

But we both love our country, we both want the best for our country (although how to get there differs), we both are a product of our country.

Maybe a viable third party would be the answer but how many times has a third party been there only to fail time and again, and to take votes away from one party or another?