Brian Church, 20, Brent Vincent Betterly, 24, and Jared Chase, 24, were arrested on terrorism and possession of explosives charges. An OWS spokesperson, Gregg Housh, is saying that they were "set up" and indeed, there is even a plan "for a protest in solidarity with the three men who were arrested," (emphasis added) as reported by Boston.com.
It is reminiscent of the Occupy San Diego "moment of silence" held for Oscar Ramiro Ortega-Hernandez, who is charged with attempted assassination of President Barack Obama using an "assault rifle with an attached scope to fire a series of shots at the White House from long range on the night of Nov. 11." It is ironic that the OWS movement holds solidarity protests and moments of silence for criminals, all the while proclaiming that violence is not acceptable and that the people who are violent are "fringe" groups or "plants".
The Cook County State's Attorney's Office said the men also had weapons, including a mortar, knives and a hunting bow, as reported by Reuters. The thugs also considered "attacking police stations and cars in Chicago to disrupt police operations in the two-day NATO summit." They stated that "the men had been making Molotov cocktails out of empty beer bottles filled with gasoline and fitted with cut bandannas for fuses." The fact that Occupy would stand in solidarity with these guys is sickening. The accused have said that what the police thought was equipment to make bombs was actually a home brewing operation, to make beer.
So who are the wannabe terrorists?
Jared Chase participated in several Occupy Wall Street groups: Boston, Providence, R.I., Washington D.C., Miami and Chicago, according to his Facebook page. Also revealed on his page were several quotes: "Freedom cannot be destroyed by these corrupt pigs with badges," one reads. Another says, "Miami has the most crooked cops in the country. We should execute them before they do something well [sic] regret." His uncle said that Jared is a "wannabe rapper" with some "past arrests for civil disobedience". He was most recently charged with petty theft in January of this year.
Brent Vincent Betterly's Facebook profile reveals that Brent admires the unlikely combination of Marxist revolutionary Che Guevara, George Washington and Guy Fawkes. His hobby is "drinking". His criminal resume reveals that he and some buddies "stole fire extinguishers from school buses, discharging one into a bus and smashing a cafeteria window with the other, then sprayed the roof of the girls' locker room" at a local high school. More recently, in October, Betterly was charged "with burglary to an unoccupied structure, grand theft and criminal mischief."
Brian Church is described as the "ringleader" of this criminal trio, and allegedly asked his accomplices if they had ever seen a "cop on fire." His plan was to "to recruit 16 people — split into four cells — to conduct the attacks." Prosecutors stated that "While the Molotov cocktails were being poured, Church discussed the NATO Summit, the protests and how the Molotov cocktails would be used for violence and intimidating acts of destruction." Brian's mom is standing by her son in denouncing those evil police, "These are totally trumped up charges," she said. "I think it's retaliatory of the police." He was charged in 2010 with burglarizing his parents' home and taking a TV, drum kit, two guitars and a paintball gun. The charges were dropped, records show. Perhaps his parents should have stuck to the charges.
Were the accused set up?
The "This is just propaganda to create a climate of fear," Michael Deutsch said. "My clients came to peacefully protest." The National Lawyers Guild, a socialist lawyers group, said that the police "broke down doors with guns drawn and searched residences without a warrant or consent," which was in direct contradiction of the statement made by the Cook County State's Attorney's Office, which stated that police obtained a warrant from a judge before executing the raid and arrests.
There is an interesting twist to this story. A week before the arrests, the suspects had a run-in with police and secretly video-taped it. In the video, one officer asks another what Chicago police would have said in 1968 when they clashed with demonstrators at the Democratic National convention. "Billy club to the f**king skull," the officer responds. Another officer says to the men in the car, who the police take as protesters, "We'll come look for you." Does this mean that these criminals are actually victims of a plot by police? It is hard to imagine even in Chicago, but hopefully the truth will be revealed in court.
Gut Check: Were the defendants set up by police?
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Comments: 102
The sad thing is that if they were set up, since the OWS movement has had incident after violent incident, without strongly denouncing those bad apples, the movement itself has less credibility and less public sympathy. 90% of the people in the movement are peaceful. But 13 percent are not, at least according to this study. They need to be weeded out.
A plutocracy exists, in this country--and because this ruling class's holdings and assets are growing, it will continue to destroy the country.
This matter is one of THE fundamental points of OWS.
But the critics simply wish to speak of shaggy hair and unkempt clothes and the irresponsible behavior of those who are on the OWS fringe.
The critics wish to attack image rather than substance. That's because the critics are on shakier ground, when it comes to substance.
It's so much easier for one to reject a book cover, when one isn't well informed about the book's content.
The "message" which is a mixture of anti-capitalism, anti-wall street, anti-wealth, anti-government, anti-police, without solutions is vague and reflects societies anger but provides no alternatives to the system they want to overthrow.
Brett, what percentage of Occupy protesters would take a million dollars if it was offered to him or her? I am sure they all would.
Brett, I have a question for you, is 10% of the movement "fringe"?
No, No, No, No:
Unemployment was ALREADY high when the entry-level job seekers hit the labor force after college, last year.
If the chronically unemployed can't find jobs, how do you expect recent graduates to?
The Right's excuse that new applicants should take grunt jobs is rediculous, inopportune, and an impractical solution for even those who have been in the work force, already, for quite some time--and are unemployed.
Many of the chronically unemployed aren't under so much debt, the way these new grads are.
That's how OWS began.
IT DIDN'T BEGIN AND IT'S NOT GOING TO END WITH POST-MODERN HIPPIES.
It was EASY to link the recent college-graduate-job-search predicament with the Casino Gamblers on Wall Street.
Very easy indeed--because the disaster on Wall Street led directly to the 2007 depression.
THAT IS THE POINT!
This link conjures up any number of issues that OWS has pondered and discussed.
Plutocracy
Lack of Retraining in the workplace and in specialized acquired skills centers
Universal Health Insurance
Corporate Welfare
Corporate Greed
Special Interests dictating Washington Politics
Influential Big Business Lobbyists
Government Deregulation in the Financial Industry
The excessive link of the Global Economy to US economy
Increasing minimum wage
Restoration of unions and union rights, with restrictions that will not deflate businesses.
I've worked hard all my life and what I have I earned and I didn't expect others to give me what I have. I am not rich but I am not poor. That said, I know it only takes a few to make all of OWS look bad but the latest news from Chicago is very, very disturbing.
If you, or other people, are unwilling to look under the surface image--in order to see the ideas and not the image--then it shows up your own shallowness.
It is people like you who are responsible for the photogenic candidates that we have to chose from now--in front of the TV camera--rather than candidates of character.
Granted OWS needs to do a much better job at PR and Image.
But you choose IMAGE above substance--because you are unwilling to judge anything or anyone, other than BY THE WAY THEY LOOK.
Police intimidating NATO / Occupy protestors in chicago on http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TudIyxxAboA
These guys have all had brushes with the law, they are not saints. But were they capable of doing what the police are charging them with? Time will tell (I hope), but I do admit that this is a fishy story. You know that I am not a huge fan of the movement, but right is right and if these guys were set up, it will be really scandalous and any cops involved should go to jail.
http://www.google.com/fusiontables/DataSource?snapid=S492304NUi8
'm in hate with the left and the right!
(See? now I can't even type!)
Your Oscar Hernandez reference is a mischaracterisation IMO. His motives and accounts of his state of mind at the time were well documented. Your article here is the first time I've seen him associated with OWS. So, I googled it. Foxnews only suggests a connection in a byline and cites this that states,"U.S. Park police say Ortega may have spent time blending in with Occupy D.C. protesters.". The Washington Post said "investigators also found no connection between him and the Occupy D.C. protest, according to three law enforcement officials familiar with the case."
I saw the video last week of supposed OWS movement supporters throwing bricks into a crowd on a May Day march. If you watch the video there are at least 3 uniformed Police standing to the side and the back of the crowd looking up at these men the whole time. We read dozens of reports every year of people being shot by Police for doing far less. I'm extremely sceptical about their motives as May Day for decades has been about worker solidarity.
These recent events are counter-intuitive to the OWS movement. Always in the top 3, Wall Street reform has been cited as one of the main goals since the beginning, specifically, the reinstatement of the Glass-Steagall act (I honestly thought this would recieve more bi-partisan support). You can fairly characterise them as anti capitalist but to suggest they're actually trying to bring down the government is hyperbole.
Google "plans to infiltrate OWS".
My "gut" suggests the timing of these events is curious with the NATO summit coming up, can I prove it though? No, their is no way to.
I wish the comment box was larger, scrolling through larger tracts of text in such a small area makes them harder to edit.
The White House shooter... I think it is fair, I guess there was an association, but no real proof. Although this "moment of silence" was a bit disturbing. It is conceivable that the gentleman asking for the moment of silence just misspoke?
"I saw the video last week of supposed OWS movement supporters throwing bricks into a crowd on a May Day march. If you watch the video there are at least 3 uniformed Police standing to the side and the back of the crowd looking up at these men the whole time. We read dozens of reports every year of people being shot by Police for doing far less. I'm extremely sceptical about their motives as May Day for decades has been about worker solidarity." I am missing your point, are you saying that you don't believe that the brick thrower was associated with Occupy? Are you saying that the cops should have shot him? Sorry, perhaps I need some coffee or something. What am I missing? If you are saying the guy was an infiltrator, I read about him and wrote about him (see above link). I would not believe that, at all. From my article, "One of those arrested, Jesse Nesbitt, allegedly threw bricks into a crowd, hitting one protester in the face who refused treatment. The same individual was previously arrested for throwing a bottle at a city employee who was trying to clean up the encampment at Justin Hermann Plaza." The point I was making here was that despite his history of violence, the OWS people still allowed him to be a part of the gang in occupying that building.
I believe there are infiltrators...on both sides....
First Result: All I got was an allegation (no source) in one and a comment in another. So, I removed the quotes. Many more sources, but most were about plans to infiltrate Tea Party groups. The others were left blogs again, making allegations. So, was there something specifically that you wanted me to see?
Yes I'm saying Police should have shot the guy throwing the bricks. In law enforcement it's known as "projecting a missle" and the probability of a brick being thrown into a crowd from such a height and killing someone isn't low (I'll actually have a friend who likes to try to work these things out take a look at it). If an animal breaks free from a zoo and starts to indiscriminately attacking people a ranger would have no other option than to shoot it. Personally, that's the way I see this. (I'm actually for the death penalty in only 2 instances: 1. Indiscriminate killers 2. Recidivist paedophiles.) By choosing to act indiscriminately, this guy showed just cause for the Police to act. It's harsh, but it's my honest opinion.
No, I just guessed that search term would bring up a number of examples. There have been numerous documented and filmed instances of agent provocateurs trying to disrupt events. I have some of them on my pc at home. Your example of democrats infiltrating and holding up signs is a bit tepid compared to the actions of the AP's.
I think where OWS went wrong, was in failing to define their message. This only prolonged proceedings and led to no outcomes. The longer it went with failing to define, the more it allowed all sorts of messages to obfuscate the original intention which was, to send a message of outrage to Wall St about it's failure to identify and prevent the largest financial loss in history. I understand you're still a student a student but my personal loss to my superannuation was over 30k, my families was closer to 200 with my parents hit the hardest (separately).
I'd appreciate it if you didn't question my sources, as I never have yours. I acknowledge your intent and except you view the information objectively. You'd notice If I use partisan sources, I use them from the other side and avoid sources from the left to avoid the appearance of bias. I did on that blog of JJ's (if you really want to call Snopes left) but then provided a further 4 reputable ones that supported it from the right. I'll admit though that I've taken your second comment to heart.
Sorry for the delay, I'm at work. It's hard to think and find things when you keep getting interrupted. Still, great discussion.
You said, “I'd already searched for and watched "moment of silence". A trait of the protests is that if you wait your turn, you get your say. After the girl calls for donations and hands him the mic, I guy who does a great Keanu Reeves impersonation makes a brief call for a moment of silence you can see people walking away. IMO no one seems to be taking him seriously (although some probably did).”
I agree, the girl next to him just looks confused. I am not quite sure what this guy was getting at, but he made the link with the shooter and occupy. Still not proof, so I will concede to your original point, which was that it was not fair to link him to the movement, if I understand you.
You said, “Yes I'm saying Police should have shot the guy throwing the bricks. In law enforcement it's known as "projecting a missle" and the probability of a brick being thrown into a crowd from such a height and killing someone isn't low (I'll actually have a friend who likes to try to work these things out take a look at it). If an animal breaks free from a zoo and starts to indiscriminately attacking people a ranger would have no other option than to shoot it. Personally, that's the way I see this. (I'm actually for the death penalty in only 2 instances: 1. Indiscriminate killers 2. Recidivist paedophiles.) By choosing to act indiscriminately, this guy showed just cause for the Police to act. It's harsh, but it's my honest opinion.”
Hell yes, they should have shot him, the guy was erratic, he could have killed somebody. I got the impression that you were implying he was an infiltrator, no? I am against the death penalty. Always have been. Although in my quiet moments I wonder how I would respond if somebody hurt a member of my family. The truth is, I would want to kill them myself.
“No, I just guessed that search term would bring up a number of examples. There have been numerous documented and filmed instances of agent provocateurs trying to disrupt events. I have some of them on my pc at home. Your example of democrats infiltrating and holding up signs is a bit tepid compared to the actions of the AP's.”
Ah, I am sure I can find others, Maks, is that a challenge? I only added that one because it is my most recent example (and, if that story is TRUE, which we don’t know for sure, then I think it would be big news because that would mean that some random idiot did not advocate infiltrating the Tea Party, but it was a systemic part of their training materials, you don’t believe that to be potentially significant?)....Regardless, I have no doubt that this activity occurs and they should be cool with it, as long as they boot the bad members. You may disagree, but there were cases of this in the Tea Party, random people would come in with racist signs (really low down, imo) and the TP people would isolate them and force them to leave. Does Occupy do this? I don’t know, but they certainly don’t do it with the violent people, Jeff Nesbitt is a good example of that.
You said, “I think where OWS went wrong, was in failing to define their message. This only prolonged proceedings and led to no outcomes. The longer it went with failing to define, the more it allowed all sorts of messages to obfuscate the original intention which was, to send a message of outrage to Wall St about it's failure to identify and prevent the largest financial loss in history.”
The message is ill-defined, yes. I have a hard time relating to them, because they do alot of complaining about numerous things, but fail to give solutions. And by the way, I am outraged about Wall Street, too, as I am with the government – there is plenty of blame to go around. I have my theories, as I am sure you do. Nobody is blameless. And the bottom line was a lack of integrity, intimidation and greed. This mess disgusts me.
You said, “I understand you're still a student a student but my personal loss to my superannuation was over 30k, my families was closer to 200 with my parents hit the hardest (separately)”, I worked full time while going to school at night for my Bachelor’s and Master’s degrees. This is the first time since I have been 18 that I do not have a full time job. I did well and learned tons...and I lost quite a bit.
You said, “I'd appreciate it if you didn't question my sources, as I never have yours. I acknowledge your intent and except you view the information objectively. You'd notice If I use partisan sources, I use them from the other side and avoid sources from the left to avoid the appearance of bias. I did on that blog of JJ's (if you really want to call Snopes left) but then provided a further 4 reputable ones that supported it from the right. I'll admit though that I've taken your second comment to heart.” I am lost, do you mean the Ortega video? Omg, I totally trust you, you have proven yourself to me already.
"Ah, I am sure I can find others, Maks, is that a challenge?"
I'm definitely not implying that there is not infiltration on both sides. I've seen the images of what I believe to be democrats holding up racist signs and then using them to slur the tea party movement as a whole. But if you have anything to add to that though, sure why not, new information that augments my understanding of a subject is what I'm all about.
"(and, if that story is TRUE, which we don’t know for sure, then I think it would be big news because that would mean that some random idiot did not advocate infiltrating the Tea Party, but it was a systemic part of their training materials, you don’t believe that to be potentially significant?)"
I do see your point, but don't think significant is the right adjective when you consider the implications of the Boehner memo to the Bankers Association leaked to Chris Hayes for MSNBC found here. I apologise for the way he presents it, as it's that very tone I argue against both sides using and offer this interesting corroborative source. This is what I'd personally describe as significant.
....Regardless, I have no doubt that this activity occurs and they should be cool with it, as long as they boot the bad members. You may disagree, but there were cases of this in the Tea Party, random people would come in with racist signs (really low down, imo) and the TP people would isolate them and force them to leave. Does Occupy do this? I don’t know, but they certainly don’t do it with the violent people, Jeff Nesbitt is a good example of that.
I've acknowledged the racist signs above and find that sort of activity abhorrent, though to imply that all of the racist material involved in the movement can be attributed liberal infiltrators is demonstrably false. I have to say here and it's something that is almost always overlooked by people on the left is that the Tea Party movement started during the Bush administration who IMO opinion are the real patriots. People who were honest enough about the real economic situation and brave enough to get up off their asses and demonstrate their principles before the notion of a "black" President was even on the horizon. These people have my eternal respect.
In saying that, once Obama was elected, there was a massive influx of people that could be characterised as "racist infiltrators" that weren't democrats", that did fatal damage to the movement as a whole.
I don't think Jeff Nesbitt is a good example at all, in the clip you can hear the protesters screaming at them and the length of it couldn't possibly be used to judge the inaction of the movement as a whole. IMO this report would be a fair representation although generalised, of the real spirit of the movement.
"The message is ill-defined, yes. I have a hard time relating to them, because they do alot of complaining about numerous things, but fail to give solutions...."
As I have already mentioned and was cited in the original "call to arms" by Adbusters, the re-installation of the Glass-Steagall act is probably the only thing that could prevent this from happening again. Id like to point out that this idea was also presented by the 'Tea Party movement as the crash was happening. I knew this and as the OWS was first beginning and after getting positive feed back from friends that actually live in New York, I reached out to a particular conservative who is on this site and explained that ideologically, there were a lot of synergies between the to movements (sorry for the run on). Sadly to me that idea was rebuffed without a second thought. By then the polarisation had already started to seep in and anything but total compliance from both sides was met with derision and ridicule.
"and I lost quite a bit."
Every reason for you to take up, support and promote the Glass-Steagall reimplementation idea. IMO, it was this very thing that really caused the whole mess. This single issue as a principle, should be able to stand up to the partisan rhetoric if the members of both sides had real courage in their convictions.
If I had to describe you as a household utensil Renee, it would be a can-opener ;)
(edited, it was driving me crazy)
"But if you have anything to add to that though, sure why not, new information that augments my understanding of a subject is what I'm all about." What a beautiful statement. Nothing new, Maks, I hope I can prove to be as open-minded.
"implications of the Boehner memo to the Bankers Association leaked to Chris Hayes for MSNBC found here." Where, where??
"to imply that all of the racist material involved in the movement can be attributed liberal infiltrators is demonstrably false." Oh no, I am not implying that. Of course there were random right wing racists (although I certainly would not say "a massive influx of people" by any stretch) and perhaps they were not screened out as they should have been. Honestly, I have been to an event or two and I personally never, ever saw that, (but I did see African American families actually being targeted by counter protesters, no lie) but I have seen a photo or two of the signs that would be considered racist. This is a big issue for me, perhaps for another day, but I think the media hype of how scary and racist they were was waaaay overblown. Did you ever see this clip? Perhaps, Maks, the Tea Party was better at screening out racists because of the intense media scrutiny. Again, I never saw or heard anything remotely racist, I saw grannies and families in lawn chairs protesting higher taxes.
"I don't think Jeff Nesbitt is a good example at all, in the clip you can hear the protesters screaming at them and the length of it couldn't possibly be used to judge the inaction of the movement as a whole." Ah yes, they absolutely were, perhaps I was not clear. The guy had a history of violence, this was known (I am assuming here that it was known, based on the fact that the previous violence was Occupy related and the Occupy protesters are keen to support each other when they are arrested). My point was that instead of inviting Nesbitt to occupy that building, they should have shunned him. Once he was clearly about to do something stupid, people responded, and that is good, but they should have weeded him out sooner. Am I making sense? So yes, they did a good thing, but it should never have gotten to that point. If you are interested, here is an interesting insight into Jesse. He is quite a sad character. At one point, he said, "I've always had revolutionary beliefs," he says. He spoke of his friends in Pittsburgh. They wouldn't let him go the G20 protests in 2009, fearing he would be incited to violence."
"As I have already mentioned and was cited in the original "call to arms" by Adbusters, the re-installation of the Glass-Steagall act is probably the only thing that could prevent this from happening again." Sure, does this represent the movement? I hear you and I see that you like it (and I will look deeper into it), but I don't know if the Occupy peeps are all running around with signs about it. Do many of them know what it is? Hey, I hope so, I am all about solutions!
If I had to describe you as a household utensil Renee, it would be a can-opener ;) Awww that is so sweet ;-) I think I would prefer to be called gorgeous, but I will take that as a compliment. And I hope you share your story behind your photo one of these days, hey maybe you should post it!!
(edited, it was driving me crazy) lol, I am exactly the same way, and these comment boxes are not really designed for the novels we have been writing.
What I was trying to say.....
"implications of the Boehner memo to the Bankers Association leaked to Chris Hayes for MSNBC found here. I apologise for the way he presents it, as it's that very tone I argue against both sides using and offer this interesting corroborative source."
"This is a big issue for me, perhaps for another day, but I think the media hype of how scary and racist they were was waaaay overblown. Did you ever see this clip? Perhaps, Maks, the Tea Party was better at screening out racists because of the intense media scrutiny."
I've already related that I don't think the TPM is racist as a whole but contend that there are elements that still exist that have not been disavowed. Amongst many of those elements was David Duke who apparently had "thousands" of supporters within it. As your own commentary suggests, Jesse Nesbitt wasn't even supported within his own circle of friends let alone any comparable number to Duke within the OWS movment. I'm sure no one even knew who he was.
I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this, as it will just descend into a pissing contest involving links.
I did watch that clip though and think she does herself and her network a disservice and condemn her for it
You flew From NZ to attend specifically or you just happened to be there? I'm not doubting you, just curious.
"Sure, does this represent the movement? I hear you and I see that you like it"
I endorsed the original intent which was summarised within the original Adbusters call for such a movement....
"This could be the beginning of a whole new social dynamic in America, a step beyond the Tea Party movement, where, instead of being caught helpless by the current power structure, we the people start getting what we want whether it be the dismantling of half the 1,000 military bases America has around the world to the reinstatement of the Glass-Steagall Act or a three strikes and you're out law for corporate criminals. Beginning from one simple demand – a presidential commission to separate money from politics – we start setting the agenda for a new America."
original
"I hope you share your story behind your photo one of these days, hey maybe you should post it!!"
Ok ok ok, but not now, some of us have to work for a living not like you hippy phd students!
There was a link that I didn't reattach in that section as well...
I don't think Jeff Nesbitt is a good example at all, in the clip you can hear the protesters screaming at them and the length of it couldn't possibly be used to judge the inaction of the movement as a whole. IMO this report would be a fair representation although generalised, of the real spirit of the movement.
Ever the contrarian (even to myself), I found this on Tea Party racism which I thought was a fair representation too.
That is pathetic, your link. I have never seen it and it is terrible and I am sure it is quite representative of how most of the occupiers feel. They don't want these jerks, as they are smart enough to know that their message is being lost. I feel for those people.
The occupiers did not like Jesse's actions, true. And they shouted at him to stop, they were not endorsing his behavior. I agree. This is frustrating because I am not getting my point across. It is not about that, it is the fact that he was still invited into the group even after his first violent outburst (having nothing to do with the brick throwing). I don't mean to belabor the point, I just don't think I am getting it across properly. We don't have to use it as an example, as I am sure (I concede) that it is not typical, but do you get what I am saying?
Thank you for that link, I never saw that video before ;-)
Quick story, as I have friends waiting for me to go to dinner.
I handle all the major accounts at work, contruction firms buliders etc... Our largest acct rang yesterday to tell us a bath we had dropped off last week had been stolen from a building site. So had to go to another of our stores to get another one. When I arrived at work this morning my business partner decides to tell me about a photo shoot hed organised for the afternoon that involved half naked women. "Wtf! Why didnt you tell me!" I exclaimed and proceeded to tell him where I had to go and why. "You better get a photo of her holding a sign that says 'max rocks'" I threatened. He said he would ask, I said "bullshit, we're paying for it. It's no more mysoginistic for her to have her picture taken with the sign than it is for her picture to be used to sell bathroom products". I made it back while they were still shooting so thhey said I could jump in. My partner to this on his iphone but the photographer took some better ones that he will email me in due course.
Gotta go, Im late.
No, No, No, No:
Unemployment was ALREADY high when the entry-level job seekers hit the labor force after college, last year.
If the chronically unemployed can't find jobs, how do you expect recent graduates to?
The Right's excuse that new applicants should take grunt jobs is rediculous, inopportune, and an impractical solution for even those who have been in the work force, already, for quite some time--and are unemployed.
Many of the chronically unemployed aren't under so much debt, the way these new grads are.
That's how OWS began.
IT DIDN'T BEGIN AND IT'S NOT GOING TO END WITH POST-MODERN HIPPIES.
It was EASY to link the recent college-graduate-job-search predicament with the Casino Gamblers on Wall Street.
Very easy indeed--because the disaster on Wall Street led directly to the 2007 depression.
THAT IS THE POINT!
This link conjures up any number of issues that OWS has pondered and discussed.
Plutocracy
Lack of Retraining in the workplace and in specialized acquired skills centers
Universal Health Insurance
Corporate Welfare
Corporate Greed
Special Interests dictating Washington Politics
Influential Big Business Lobbyists
Government Deregulation in the Financial Industry
The excessive link of the Global Economy to US economy
Increasing minimum wage
Restoration of unions and union rights, with restrictions that will not deflate businesses.
I personally think the views of the movement are silly and unfounded, but people have a right to their opinions. If they are unemployed, that is sad, if they are not willing to take (your word) "grunt" jobs like I did while putting myself through school, I guess they have the right to keep leaching from their parents if their parents are stupid enough to keep paying their kids for protesting. But I am not going to tell you not to do it, Brett. I know you have the right to say what you want to say.
I have a problem with lawlessness. I have a problem with the trash Occupy leaves behind for others to clean up, whether it be literal trash or vandalism, I have a problem with these big babies shutting down bridges and ports and making a man or woman's work day even more stressful, I have a problem with OWS squatting on public property, like public parks, without permits or offering any alternatives to people who paid for the parks with their tax money and now have to find an another place to take their kids, I have a problem, Brett, with the cities who have to babysit these protesters, who continually provoke them with F**k the Police rallies, who throw bricks and bottles and paint at police officers and videotaping every second, just hoping for some violence that they can post on YouTube, I have a problem with protesters finding other protests (like a pro-life rally) and shouting over them, denying them the constitutional right that the Occupiers hold so dear.
I could give a hoot about the Occupiers opinions. I have opinions too. I express mine within the boundaries of the law. I have a problem with lawlessness.
The "grunt" job comment set me off, I think. It is just immature and silly. And I don't care if they march everyday, I am sick of the drain to cities and taxpayers and most importantly, the violence.
Minimum wage rises or the intitutionalised imperative for corporate growth?
Everything the World HAS has come from, and off of the backs, of Americans, for Gods' sake! Go burn your dung to heat your hut and cook your gruel. GO!
You are a funny man Mark.
If New Zealanders are flocking to Australia because they have more good paying high level careers then perhaps the certain doom of a high minimum wage is not certain? Sure, Lebrea, I don't know if I think anyone is saying it is "doom", but the question is, does it help?
Raising lowest tier wages does not seem to shutter businesses as often claimed and cuts back on eligibility for food stamps and the like. hmmm, interesting, and I wonder what the "calculation" is to determine who is eligible for food stamps?
It would seem that it is one ingredient in a more equitable economy that does well? It is possible, Lebrea, I would not make that leap, based just on this, but it is worth exploring further...
Thank you for the food for thought. ;-)
THE MEN AND WOMEN WHO ARE CHRONICALLY UNEMPLOYED--BEFORE THE NEW COLLEGE GRADS EVEN GET INTO THE WORK FORCE--ARE UNEMPLOYED BECAUSE THERE ARE NOT ENOUGH GRUNT JOBS TO GO AROUND.
THAT WAS CLEARLY ONE OF MY POINTS ABOVE.
BUT MEN AND WOMEN, ON THE RIGHT, CAN'T SEE IT--BECAUSE THEY NEED TO BELIEVE THAT AMERICA IS BUILT ON TOUGHING IT OUT, RUGGED INDIVDIUALISM, PICKING YOURSELF UP BY YOUR BOOTSTRAPS, WORKING YOUR WAY UP, AND ALL OF THE FREE-ENTERPRISE CLICHES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH THAT GOOD OLD TRIED AND TRUE NOTION:
SELF-MADE MEN AND CAPITALISM.
When, just when, is the Right going to realize that the economy is in very sad shape and has been, since before Obama was in office.
What's more, regardless of what you may believe, neither a Republican administration or a Democratic administration is likely to be able to fix it, effectively.
Nevertheless, the Right will blame the implosions on the Left, no matter what.
The Left has issues to answer for as well.
But I promise you, in the years to come, Democrats and Obama will be blamed....no matter what happens....even though it won't be true.
What is going on with the economy--I strongly believe--cannot be fixed by one point of view or even a collaboration.
I believe strongly also that it is much, much more serious and complex than that.
That grunt job issue is such a straw man argument.
Wake Up!
I don't trust democrats or republicans, either, unfortunately.
Brett, speaking of missing the point, I am sure you are passionate, I see that you are, and clearly we have differing opinions. However, I think perhaps you are avoiding my point, which is that the violence at Occupy is outrageous. It needs to be denounced. We can discuss (civilly, please) any issue you want.
It doesn't matter WHO brought up the grunt issue.
It doesn't MATTER whether I did or you did.
The point is that there are NOT ENOUGH JOBS TO GO AROUND. PERIOD.
But it's worse for the recent grads--`cause they don't have job experience and they are beleaguered, in some cases, with hundreds of thousands of dollars in student loan debt.
Even if there were grunt jobs available--which there aren't--these students aren't going to be able to work their way up in a system anymore, necessarily--where one job leads to another....because there aren't any jobs to begin with and the system has also changed.
Those who do have entry-level jobs find it harder and harder to get on a career track--not because they are necessarily socially deficient or unresourceful; but rather because the system has changed in a dysfunctional way.
Too many jobs are being eliminated; are being reabsorbed into positions where duties are divided or multiplied, with more than one worker, already on staff; or, suddenly, jobs require skills that recent grads haven't had a chance to acquire.
New Business Development is not moving in a necessary direction.
And nepotism is worse than ever.
The plutocracy isn't simply nepotism; it's also the need for newly acquired skills in technology that keep being rerouted to those who already have preexisting skills.
Recent grad students have loans that only MDs can dig their way out of.
And some MDs take years to get on their feet.
Think of what it's going to be like for non-MD grads--which is pretty much over 95% of all grads, each year.
OWS misbehavior is pathetic.
I visited one of their sites and I couldn't stand being there.
But THE IDEAS are the opposite of pathetic.
I have written harshly and I have spoken out publicly about the stupid and ugly acts and behavior.
BUT ALL THE RIGHT WANTS TO DO IS POINT OUT THE STIGMAS AND NOT SEE THE IDEAS.
THE IDEAS ARE VERY VERY SIGNIFCANT AND IF THEY ARE NOT ADDRESSED BY BOTH PARTIES, THE COUNTRY IS GOING DOWN IN 20 YEARS OR EVEN MUCH SOONER.
THAT IS THE-THE-THE-THE POINT.
WHEN THE NAZIS TOOK OVER THE WEIMAR REPUBLIC EVERYONE WAS IN DENIAL.
THE REPUBLICANS ARE NOT NAZIS; NEITHER ARE THE DEMOCRATS.
BUT THE WEAKER THE ECONOMY BECOMES, THE MORE PRONE THE COUNTRY WILL BE TO BE TAKEN OVER BY FASCISM.
You can't be serious...you wouldn't want to be caught saying that anyone that attends University is UNAWARE that they'll emerge with a Bill for the pleasure?????????? Are you DAFT, FOOL? It's worse for recent Grads, Brett, because there's no Market for Degrees in Underwater Basket-Weaving, and Affixing Condoms to Cucumbers! Fool, you can thank University, and LEFTISTS. Most of those "students" couldn't identify a photo of Ronald Reagan, if his name was inscribed at the bottom. I challenge you to show me a recent Grad who can even Spell...but they're sure-as-Hell quite well-read on "Homosexual Contributions to Art and Society," and "The Reflective Woman"...Sons-of-Bitches are taught MORE about FORNICATING than they are about FACTS at University...
By God, Man...YOU wake up...
If I was to offer anyone advice, it would be to work while going to school, even if it takes longer. Take two or three classes a semester and work full time. That way, you get work experience + little to no debt. And for the love of pete, start at a community college for a 2 year degree first and transfer your credits. It is much cheaper and you still can go to a reputable university. It just makes financial sense. Universities are a business, they love money and there is no reason to go into crazy debt. And as Mark-John said, don't just take any major without having an idea of how marketable it is. You are selling yourself.
People I know wanted to be Art teachers and went for other teaching degrees... why??? How many Art teachers are in a school?
I think the fastest growing jobs are in the medical field. As the baby boomers are getting older we will have a large amount of people needing medical services. Hospitals will help people move up the job ladder helping with assisting with education... because they need nurses. I have run across many people who became nurses this way. Two people I know worked as nurses aides and became nurses. One was my first nurses aide when I was in a rehab/nursing home... and by the time I got out, he was a nurse... and working there as a nurse. As a side note, he was a wrestler before that. It was fascinating because he knew Andre the Giant and other famous wrestlers. I think some times people need to research when they go for degrees and training .. and look and see if there is a need.
I know I went off the subject here, but sometimes people have to shift jobs. . it's not like years ago when you found a job and worked 50 years. Because the only loyalty anymore is to a companies stockholders.
When companies feel they have too look good for the stockholders, they often lay off workers... to look profitable... but less workers can mean less customers and it becomes a downhill spiral.
I worked years ago for FDU in the Financial Aid office and learned they figure out what the parents can pay and make the packages from that...and they had to make quotas so they would work hard to get all they could for the kids. I often encourage people to seek college or training because if they are lower income... they can get more help... and some counties, like mine offer an 18 month course to become an Lpn and you can get funding for it. At least down here the counties offer training programs so if college isn't an option... there are other things people can do to get skills.
I was college prep in High school... I worked in a Diner, then a drugstore... and at one point in a factory because I had no training... I worked for the phone company and later wound up getting training from the Ceta program to be a full cycle bookkeeper. They wanted to put me in a 2 year program to be a programmer... I was 1 of 3 people who did the highest on some test, but I was on unemployment and it wasn't for 2 years back then... I did a 6 month program in a little over 4 months. The instructor said I should become a CPA... but I had mouths to feed and needed to work. I sure learned how important skills are.
Heather, it sounds like you have worked very hard in your life and you have accomplished quite a bit. You are (as always) an inspiration, truly.
I don't think there was entrapment. Seems to me that there's something more troubling. We're catching mostly incompetent terrorists, if "terrorist" is the right word for these guys. They had a few Molotov Cocktails and a small stash of edged weapons. I can't see this as a major terror plot even if they were studying how to make real explosives. These guys seem like the relative most people have who has grandiose ideas and never manages to follow through on them.
It doesn't bother me that they were arrested. I do wonder about a couple of other questions. "Are there more skilled terrorists who've managed to conceal what they're doing from the government or are all the terrorists in the US a bunch of palookas and bozos?" If there are competent terrorists operating law enforcement needs to do a better job. If the only terrorists are stumble bums then we need to relax and do away with the Patriot Act.
Anti-war demonstrations attracted a broad spectrum of people ranging from committed pacifists to people who believed in violent overthrow of the government. OWS is a lot like that. Like Will Rogers' Democratic Party, OWS is not organized. People who participate in the demonstrations certainly share some ideas but they come from a wide variety of points of view.
That one or more of the people who were arrested participated in some OWS demonstrations is a minor point in the overall story.